December 09, 2017

Neo-Vedantic Knowledge project of Sri Aurobindo

Collated by Tusar Nath Mohapatra:

Workshop for 6-9 year olds on 16 Dec at Gnostic Centre - A workshop on Imagination through Robotics, Pottery, Movement, Illustrations and Visualisation. Contact / 9810033308

Excited to be sponsoring Wisdom 2.0 2018! Join us there along with leading business & spiritual leaders. #wisdom2conf

New at IPB: 50th Annual Conference of the Society for Asian and Comparative Philosophy

Aurobindo Ghose abandoned his deep-seated political activities to develop a religious teaching for the spiritual benefit of all men. Read about his spiritual views and ideas in Prasenjit Sen’s book SRI AUROBINDO, here:

Great piece on Sri Aurobindo, The Hindu

[PDF] Building an Intuitive Mentality: The Neo-Vedantic Knowledge Project of Sri Aurobindo
D Banerji - 2017
Abstract Post-Enlightenment philosophy, which is largely creative of and dominates the modern consciousness, has defined humanism in terms of rationality and its control over the irrational. This has led to our technological age but has also spawned counter philosophies 

I Gandhi - 2017
… lifestyle related disorders. Over a long period of time many yogis, philosophers and scholars such as Patanjali, Gandhiji, Sri Aurobindo and various others have accepted yoga as a tool for self-realisation. Gandhiji's morality …

[DOC] Post-Colonial Approach in Mahesh Dattani's Plays
MJM Rajput
… This appeared on the literary horizon in 1871. Rabindranath Tagore and Sri Aurobindo, the two great sages - poets of India, are the first Indian dramatists in English. RN Tagore wrote primarily in Bengali but almost all his Bengali plays are available to us in English renderings …

Theme of Nature in Sri Aurobindo's Savitri: an Overview.
TK Panda - International Journal of Innovative Knowledge …, 2017
Abstract Spiritualism and its interpretation through Nature in Sri Aurobindo's Savitri has become an attraction for all. Man through spiritual Sadhana can be a superhuman only by regulating his nature. Savitri could achieve the power by which she could conquer death that 

Bhagavad Gita and Hindu modes of capitalist accumulation in India
BS Nayak, BS Nayak - Society and Business Review, 2017

[HTML] Cattle in religion
GM TV, C Naturism, H Church, UM Church, M Luther…
Cattle are considered sacred in various world religions, most notably Hinduism, but also...

[PDF] Non Cognitive Skills and Indian Education policy Indian Situation Analysis
N Pahwa
… Page 13. 13 Reference list Aurobindo, S. (1990). (Reprint). On education. Pondicherry: Aurobindo Ashram. ASER.(2014). Annual Status of Learning Report Bloom, BS, Engelhart, MD, Furst, EJ, Hill, WH, & Krathwohl, DR (1956) …

B Ghosh, S Bagchi
… 5. Cunningham, A. (2006): The Ancient Geography of India, Low Price Publications, Delhi (originally published in 1871). 6. Ghosh, Aurobindo (2005): Life Divine, Published by Sri Aurobindo Ashram Publication Department, Pondicherry, India …

Indian constitution treats citizens based on their religion. Why are people then demanding that religion and politics not be mixed?

My views on Hindutva are more nuanced now. The state-society distinction remains material, and so is the terminology. But having studied history, philosophy and religion further- I believe that India should be declared a Dharma Rashtra. My piece (Jan 2012)

Savitri Era Open Forum (SEOF - since 2005): With the Mother, Sri Aurobindo ushered in modern Hinduism @madversity @viryavaan @redLotus1_ @NathTusar #SriAurobindo #FiveDreams

Arya–4. No 5—December 1917 Sri Aurobindo
The Future Poetry I., A Hymn to Savitri [5.81]
The Life Divine XXXIX. The Ascent out of the Ignorance
Synthesis of Yoga XXXVII. The Higher and the Lower Knowledge
Essays on the Gita The Divine Birth and Divine Works (3) 

(1) MANOJ DAS GUPTA, (2) DILIP KUMAR DUTTA, (3) DILIP MEHTANI, (4) PRABHAKAR RUPANAGUNTA @ BATTI and (5) ABHIPSA NAGDA, the trustees of Sri Aurobindo Ashram, Pondicherry

Sri Aurobindo Society
Pradeep Narang, Chairman
Vijay Poddar, Admn & Finance
Sushila Melvani, Secretary
Gopal Bhattacharjee, Joint Secretary & International Secretary
Ajit Sabnis
Amod Kumar
Jaybharat D Jethwa
Kaivalya Smart
O P Dani
Vijay K Poddar

Dr. Karan Singh (Chairman for a fourth term of four years), Dr. Prema Nandakumar, Prof. Sachidananda Mohanty, Dr. Anirban Ganguly, and Dr. Nirima Oza. Ex-officio members are Mr. Rakesh Ranjan, IAS and Ms. Darshana Dabral, IAS. - Governing Board, Auroville

Feel Philosophy: Their concerns are complimentary, and a dialog between these thinkers is urgently required - At the ends of man: Sri Aurobindo and Michel Foucault by Rich
Provocation and Interruption
by Sam Mickey
Provocation and interruption are, respectively, the origin and goal of philosophy. This sense of philosophy finds expression in the following quotations from Peter Sloterdijk, the first of which suggests that philosophy is a trace of an unavoidable provocation, while the second articulates the function of the philosopher as an interrupter.

I occasionally try to convince my peers that people in general aren’t the vulgar Cartesians we sometimes caricature them to be, and then stuff like this happens. SMH.

It is interesting to look briefly over the exchanges on this thread, at 5am here in seoul, and compare with the more intense discussions of consciousness in korea and japan of the past few weeks, also including the leader of japan's main brain institute (who would react much as Roman would to assumptions made on this thread). 

One relevant point from here -- the fact that humans in the animal kingdom of this tiny planet earth are unique here, in time and in space, in their ability to lose touch with reality. Cats and mice can be abberated by undigested traumatic or euphoric memories, just as humans can, but humans can become attached to totally nonproductive and meaningless verbal behavior in ways which lower types of consciousness do not (because they do not believe words so much) and which higher forms do not (because they do not abuse words so much). This widespread losing touch with reality, made worse for many people due to "reddit" or "fake news" phenomena,  is ever more visible in ever so many forms these days,  and it is a serious real world challenge how to deal with it. Respect for the cat and the mouse is one part of what could help us all to calm down a bit and reconnect with reality.. but maybe this is not the place to get TOO deep into such issues.

For here.. there are issues of emphasis. Maybe we should not be putting so much energy into defending or attacking soeculations about things more than 10 billion yeaes or light years away, or smaller than 0.1 femtometers. One might hope that roman (or even neuroscience people on the sadhu list) might be more interested in the tapestry of actual experience of what ram sees in his brain kab or direct experience, than in debates about speculations beyond our authentic first person OR laboratory experience. (Please no neurotic smirks from people asserting they have clear personal memories of when the ordained the big bang. There have been discussions here as well about what really goes on in the minds of donald trump and of king kim III, certainly a serious and important topic, but not appropriate for naive emulation.)

Another theme which keeps coming up at all levels in serious discussions: the old Mark Twain saying, roughly: it's not what you don't know that kills you, it's what you know that isn't true. As the old sages said long ago, we all need to pay a bit more attention to trying to understand our own blind spots.

Best of luck,  Paul

What you are saying is that the brain creates both the neural correlate (NC) and its 'meaning' which the first person is aware of and any third person is not; the latter is aware of the NC but the former is not.  I do not deny that.
Consider the experience of seeing an apple for example. The NC is a faithful representation of the apple. (For example, Jz Young in Programs of the Brain says "the detailed characteristics of brain cells provide ‘codes’ for features of the world, such as a particular line or sound, or the color red so that some physical events in the nerves together provide a faithful representation of events outside, and a detailed model of the world.").  Now if you show the apple to a computer, it will also create a record (electronic) and can even say that the apple is red but it does not create the 'meaning' for the record.  The meaning is assigned by the programmer, to the computer's record  consisting of hardware elements.  That is how the computer announces or prints out the meaning of its record.  So, there is a physical component and a mental component to what the brain does.  The computer can only perform the physical component but not the mental component.  In other words the physical and mental functions are separate.  
Syamala Hari

December 04, 2017

Sartre, Sri Aurobindo, Donne, Tagore, Milan Kundera, and Kamal Kumar Majumdar

December 5 is Sri Aurobindo’s Mahasamadhi  Day.  On this occasion a group meditation will  be held from 10.30 am to 11.00 am at Sri Aurobindo Bhavan, Sector 62, Noida. 

Collated by 

Literature and Common Life
N Mukherji - Reflections on Human Inquiry, 2017
... One could think of some of the novels and plays of Sartre, poetry of Sri Aurobindo, 'metaphysical' poetry of Donne, some later poetry of Tagore, some of the fiction by Milan Kundera, Kamal Kumar Majumdar, and the like. (B) ...

[PDF] The “The Life Divine''as it Begins: An essential understanding of the first chapter of Life Divine–“The Human Aspiration”
DA Banerjee
… It is a very famous quotation on Usha, the Dawn. Perhaps, through the quotation and symbol of Dawn, Shri Aurobindo wants us to get a subtle but a profound glimpse of the Dawn – The incoming of the Transcendental Light of the New Age …

[PDF] Physical Education by Sri Aurobindo
ABSTRACT On the subject of physical education, it must be mentioned that the physical is our base, and even the highest spiritual values are to be expressed through the life that is embodied here. Sariram adyam khalu dharmasadhanam, says the old Sanskrit adage, the 

[HTML] Bhagini Nivedita
S Nivedita
… Sri Aurobindo was one of her friends as well. [24]. Cultivation of Indian culture … Nivedita provided guarded support to Annie Besant, and was very close to Aurobindo Ghosh (later Sri Aurobindo), one of the major contributors towards early nationalist movement …

[PDF] IN his Farewell Address to the students of the Bengal National College on 23 August 1907, Sri Aurobindo says: If you will study, study for her [the Mother's–India's] …
As one revisits the life of Acharya Prafulla Chandra Ray, one is reminded of the above message of Sri Aurobindo. An intense love for the country and her people was the fountain spring from which flowed the various streams of the Acharya's activity. Indeed, patriotism 

Construction of Plural Selves in India
P Sengupta - Language as Identity in Colonial India, 2018
… Leaders such as Tilak, Aurobindo and Gandhi used religion as a tool for political unity among Hindus … Aurobindo Ghose, describing the Swaraj faction as practicing “democratic nationalism,” refuted the existence of two factions within INC, declaring that …

N Kaushal, S Mishra - STUDIES, 2017
… management. Leaders such that, Mahatma Gandhi, Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose, Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Sir Aurobindo are prominent personalities of India who lived their life according to lessons of Gita. They always Page 7. 43 …

[PDF] Ambedkar memorial lecture 2015-16 on Dr. Ambedkar's vision and mission
CS Reddy - 2017
… Ramanujacharya. In the fourth phase, particularly in the 19th century period, we are immensely indebted to Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Dayanand Saraswati, Swami Vivekananda, Aurobindo and so on for their philosophy and thought …

A Psychoanalyst Views the Self Across Civilizations
A Roland - On Human Nature, 2017
… When I was in Bangalore in 1980, I was invited to attend a meeting with Dr. Murthy who was visiting, a former Chair of the Psychology Department at the National Institute of Mental Health and Neuro Sciences (NIMHANS), currently living in the Aurobindo Ashram in Pondicherry …

Building Identity: Information, Intellect and Inspiration
P Sengupta - Language as Identity in Colonial India, 2018
… Nehru, Mooknayak (1920) by BR Ambedkar, Al-Hilal (1912) by Abdul Kalam Azad, The Indian Sociologist (1905) by Shyamji Krishna Verma, Navjiwan (1929) Harijan (1933) and Young India (1919) by Gandhi, Vande Mataram (1905) by Bipin Chandra Pal and Aurobindo Ghose …

[PDF] Orientalism: A Perspective
C Gupta
… In the third part of this paper, I discuss Peter Heehs, six different styles of Orientalist discourse about India, along with Sri Aurobindo national Orientalist in order to show that Indocentrism culture and Eurocentrism culture both needs one another …

My Journey from an Asian British to British Asian
S Bhattacharjee - 2017
… estates. He had a high degree of respect for the basic administrative quality of the British. He was also an admirer of various Indian freedom fighters, including Mahatma Gandhi, Sri Aurobindo and Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose. So …

[PDF] Types of knowledge and what they allow us to see
M Cornelissen
… We'll now see what the Indian tradition can tell us in this area. PART II: THE FOUR KNOWLEDGE REALMS THAT ARE NEEDED FOR A COMPREHENSIVE UNDERSTANDING OF HUMAN NATURE Sri Aurobindo's four types of knowledge and how they can be perfected …

[PDF] Archetype and Eternal Object
G Maxwell
… of the archetypes, which he describes as having “autonomy,” “intentionality,” and “a personal nature from the very beginning.”30 However, it seems likely that archetypes can be conceived fruitfully as both persons and impersonal forces, what Sri Aurobindo calls “Personalities …

[PDF] Panch Siddhanta (Five Principles) of Indian Ethos and Indian Management: Towards Vedanta-In-Practice
S Sharma
… determine our attitude towards work, society and fellow human beings. For achieving the holistic vision of development we need to have such an attitude of oneness and 'social concerns'. Sri Aurobindo's phrase, 'Practical Spirituality' could be viewed in a similar vein. Further it …

J Bandyopadhyaya, A Mukherjee
… peace and security. Another profound work on world government, albeit with metaphysical overtones, was produced in India by Sri Aurobindo, entitled The Ideal of Human Unity (Sri Aurobindo Ashram, Pondicherry, 1950). By this …

Participation and the Mystery
JN Ferrer - Tikkun, 2017
… Despite his downplaying the spiritual import of sexuality and the vital world, the Indian mystic Sri Aurobindo was correct when he wrote that the liberation of consciousness cannot be equated to an integral transformation entailing the spiritual alignment of all human dimensions …

ABSTRACT Sri Aurobindo was the first Indian leader to advocate publically India's complete independence “Purna Swaraj”. As a national prophet he has explored the nature of freedom very intensely and fervently. He has explained it as 'the longing to be free is lodged in such a 

Interpreting Modernity and the Cultural Possibility of Social Transformation
U Bhattacharyya - Society and Culture in South Asia, 2017
Abstract Modernity is associated with the celebration of rationality and the intervention of science, which manifested itself in the historical development of i...

New Horizons of Human Development: Art, Spirituality and Social Transformations
AK Giri - The Aesthetics of Development, 2017
... They also bring us in many different related ways to seekers and practitioners such as Tagore, Gandhi and Sri Aurobindo. ... But Sri Aurobindo here also challenges limited understanding of aesthetics when it is bound to senses only. ...

Development Poetics: A tiNai Aesthetic View
N Selvamony - The Aesthetics of Development, 2017
... Is it true that mantiram is an appropriate genre to convey the truth apprehended by seers? Aurobindo conveys this idea when he says that mantra is always ... We may compare Aurobindo's idea of mantram, derived from Vedic learning, with the one found in tolkaappiyam. ...

From Gandhi to Modi: Institutions and Technologies of Speech and Symbolism in India
W Gould - Speech and Society in Turbulent Times, 2017
... but lesser-known in general terms. However, it also involves more famous Hindu revivalists and Congress radicals, such as Sri Aurobindo, Swami Vivekananda, and Syama Prasad Mookerjee. This symbolic strategy has, in ...

[HTML] Employment with Frank Lloyd Wright
A Raymond, A Reimann
... [2]. Sri Aurobindo Ashram. Golconde dormitory of the Sri Aurobindo Ashram in Pondicherry (1935). ... [4]. In 1935, Raymond's office had accepted a commission to design a dormitory for the Sri Aurobindo Ashram in Pondicherry, part of French India in southeast India. ...

[PDF] The Giant Dance of Shiva
S Bidwaikar
... the armoured Night.1 hese lines from Sri Aurobindo's epic poem Savitri at once bring forth the vi- sion of Nataraja, the cosmic dance of Lord Shiva as depicted in the bronze statues in South India. These statues present themselves ...

PK Rejimon
... 4. Sri Aurobindo's - Evolutionary Theory of Art Sri Aurobindo's aesthetics is integral to his philosophy of life and consciousness. ... The aesthetic evolution of humanity Aurobindo refers to necessary prerequisite to the ultimate spiritual ascent. ...

OSA NY/NJ 2017 Journal
S Das
... Amritapuri was a nice place indeed. Pondicherry: Our next trip was to Pondicherry, to visit the Ashram of Sri Aurobindo (1872-1950) and The Mother (1878-1971), who is also known as Shree Maa in Odiya language. Shree Maa was the spiritual companion of Sri Aurobindo. ...

Religion among People: Essays on Religions and Politics
KW Bolle - 2017
Page 1. RELIGION AMONG PEOPLE Essays on Religions and Politics Kees W. Bolle Page 2. “Sharp and never satisfied with the obvious, Kees Bolle handles key subjects like secularization, fundamentalism, and the religious structure of modern man. ...

The Place of Humanities in Our Universities
M Miri - 2017

Hi Vinod/Ram:

Matter, mind, and consciousness are one wholesome continuum without any discreteness or fragmentations or dualities or multiplicities of particle/wave, mass/energy, physical/astral/divine etc. The universal relativistic model represents total reality as a continuum at all sizes and masses from zero to infinity. Any given entity can be described in terms of infinite number of relativistic mass/energy/space/time states with size/mass ranging from zero to infinity and space/time dilating (V=C, V never exceeds C)  as per relativity. The apparent discreteness or duaity or multiplicity is purely a mind-construct or measurement-construct because of the limitations of mind’s thoughts and measurement process itself leading to the fragmentations in terms of particles of various sizes/scales and material/physical/astral/primordial domains.

The original spiritual masters of various religions have unequivocally stated the fundamental non-duaity of the ultimate reality without any discreteness or fragmentations. Both the universal relativity science and genuine spirituality completely agree in this non-duality of existence without any partition between the physical and divine. Any duality between them is caused by the limitations of the mind’s schizophrania, hence the spiritual practice recomments the complete dissolution of the mind in Samadhi (Zero Point relativistic state) to realize the Oneness or non-duaity of existence.  However, some later yogis or siddhas claimed their individual experiences and subjective varying inerpretations fragmenting and compartmentalizing the ONE realty into various sizes and domains.

In light of the above, the ongong and non-converging debate reagrding the multiplicities of Planckian, sub-Planckian domains, QM domain, astral space, particles, consciousness, mind etc are not only irrelevant but counter to the ONE wholesome non-dual scientific (relativistic) and spiritual fundamental reality. People could argue on these subjective mental-construct domains forever without reaching any concensus because of its departure from the fundamental ONE universal reality.

Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

On Thursday 23 November 2017, Robert Boyer wrote:
1.       Re: ‘initial manifestation.’  In 2010 I published “Think Outside the Bang,” which has more detail on progress from ‘reductive’ big bang to ‘holistic’ Vedic cosmology. In a holistic view, nature manifests ‘top-down,’ from the ‘perfectly orderly’ unified field of all the laws of nature (super-symmetric, balanced Samhita of three gunas) to subtle and gross relative: highest order/interdependent to lowest order/independent phenomenal levels.
This might better be characterized as a ‘big condensation’ from the infinite eternal totality, rather than a ‘big bang’ from nothing. In this view, it would seem that ‘big bang’ models would relate to bangs and crunches in gross physical spacetime (the explicate order, the mahabhutas (the minor pralaya in Vedic literature?). The big bang model of 13.8 billion years since ‘initial manifestation’ would be in this context, compared to eternal cycles in Vedic literature. (This doesn’t address your points of an ‘initial cycle,’ or ‘a set of liberated souls = God.’; or miracles of ‘Sai Baba of Shirdi’—though important to consider in another context/time.)
2.       Yes
3.       Generally, yes.
4.       The ‘precise mechanisms’ are not described using current modern scientific terminology, but are in Veda. The term I’ve suggested of ‘phenomenal emergence’ is not based on idealism, but rather relates to the phenomenal, sequential manifestation of levels of nature from the subtlest to the grossest, in Veda—that is, the sequence of expressions of the laws of nature.
5.       Modern scientists are trying to describe the precise mechanics, and Vedic scientists are also—and these two approaches are starting to link up. But there is a long way to go, both to describe them in mathematical and other language symbols, as well as, in more definitive validation, to experience the mechanics directly in higher states of consciousness--as Vedic sounds/forms. Sankhya helps get the ontology more precise, and Yoga helps the epistemology for direct empirical experience—while also improving reasoning and sensory experience (the two means to gain knowledge in modern science) at each stage of higher progress. Are we getting a little closer? I don’t mean to be vague here; I’m trying to summarize the overall, global view. If you can give an example of a description of ‘precise mechanisms’ that would be more satisfying, I may be able to be more specific.

Best wishes,


In less than 4 years, fom has published 150 papers from over 100
different authors. Our latest conference is as ever described by
Cynthia Larson;

Cynthia leaves one paper out; the one in which I introduced the
conference.  It outlined the metaphysical background to what we do, and is featured below. Yet fom is after even bigger game and we will take a moment to look at it. An advisory; I am well aware of issues like those surrounding propositional attitudes, substance dualism, quantum ontologies, non-coding dna, decoherence in biological systems, the importance of timing in neural firing, moral and epistemological relativism,  and indeed state and civil society and so on. To explain how the Bionoetics framework encompasses these and myriad other issues has been one of the tasks of our publication series, and I’m not going to attempt to recapitulate it here.

There are several ways into the Bionoetics framework, considered as the study of knowing encompassing enough to cater for knowledge that is not simply cognitive. One might ask that if everything is relative to consciousness, in that it is apprehended consciously, surely we should simply study consciousness? More prosaically put, and more in keeping with conventional academic discourse, surely psychology can inform us about the entities that mind deals with (that would be the world) as a natural consequence of explaining mind?

Alternatively, we might decide that, since math can afford the most elliptical and veridical description of Reality/the world, surely we should defer to the descriptions in math physics?  On the other extreme, we might argue that the spectacularly ordered cosmos (and particularly the biosphere as Gaia) revealed over the past half-century might usher in another God, fully as transcendent, immanent, exigent  and awesome as that “Revealed” to Abraham, Moses and Mohammed?

What may work best, however, is to consider how transcendence, ontology, metabolism, and will/attention can be merged into a scientific worldview. We wish to be able to countenance not just the science of the early third millennium, but any discoveries that will emerge from this spectacularly successful investigation of Nature. We wish to cater in our society for those who are open-minded theists and atheists alike, and to do so in a way that is more useful than mere verbal multiculturalism.

The breakthrough made here is to dispense altogether with the theist/atheist distinction in favour of a distinction between acts of mind that are “relative” to consciousness – that is, they can occur slowly enough for consciousness with its approx 0.1 second granularity to broadcast through the CNS – and those that re “transcendent” to consciousness. It is a fact that many “believers” are quite simply amateur canon lawyers with no experience of the transcendent. To them, God is another  artifact of instrumental consciousness, while to many “atheists” there is a clear domain of the transcendent. A further wrinkle, the “relativistic” is included in my paper below.

Secondly, the ignoring of ontology by modern science has led researchers to use techniques on generics that are too primitive even for chaotic physical systems. Moreover, the treatment of the brain as precisely that – a chaotic physical system – affords a perspective that not alone explains the timing of neural firing, gives flesh to the abstract notion of “intentionality”, but also could well clean up the quagmire that has loosed $6 billion on brain imaging in 25 years without a single therapy emerging. In short, we predict that the approach we use with syntax explicit in genomics, metabolism featured (again explicitly) in accounts of gene-expression, and dynamical systems used in neuroscience will help cure diseases, particularly currently intractable ones like Alzheimer’s

Moreover, while the jury will remain out – if clearly  not cloistered – on which interpretation of quantum mechanics (QM) will prevail, two facts will remain salient. One is that QM observation involves a free choice, thus opening the door to free will, and dualism. Secondly, both the Bohmian and Von Neumann/Stapp interpretation of QM involves a choice that is informed by, and has consequences for, the wave function of the universe. On a less ethereal level, it has yet to be pointed out that, just as attention “collapses” the wave function in QM by dispensing with quantum entanglement, so it also decorrelates informational fluctuations at the classical neural firing level. Human choice seems intrinsically causal. Indeed, as my paper suggests, it can change states of affairs in the past; to use that paper’s vocabulary, the noumenal becomes truly numinous.

In fact, I wish to end with a truly audacious argument. It begins with the idea that god is indeed dead; better put, the notion that God can be part of instrumental consciousness is dead. What we have instead is the sacred; the sacralization of automatic processes like eating, social processes like those related to birth and death, and moments of true authentic self-transcendence. New religious movements should encompass these, as well as life processes in which the boundaries of subject and object, self and other, are being defined. A new religious leader will work with communities of practice who sense that there is something sacred in their work but have not had it attested. Examples are ethnic musicians, open-source software developers, ecowarriors.

We have a companion prize-winning free  online university (  It is only a slight exaggeration to state that university education is currently a project to dumb down gifted students, choose the most obsequious as free labour grad students, and encumber the rest with sufficient debt to make them anxious corporate drones. If the description of Bionoetics above interests you, and you would like to master the knowledge required to understand it in detail, we invite you to enroll.

The Foundations of Mind V (FOM5) "The New AI Scare?” conference was hosted by the California Institute for Integral Studies (CIIS) by the CIIS Center for Consciousness Studies in San Francisco on Nov 3-4, 2017. It featured presentations by: Henry Stapp, Fred Alan Wolf, Seán Ó Nualláin, Cynthia Sue Larson, Stanley Klein, and Beverly Rubik. This fifth Foundations of Mind conference was scheduled to coincide with and celebrate the release of Henry Stapp’s new book, “Quantum Theory and Free Will.”
People registered through Foundations of Mind (FOM) participate in an ongoing series of conversational threads in areas related to consciousness, quantum interpretations, neuroscience, and higher education.

August 14, 2017

Nobody knows what is reality; fear of the fundamental question, life and death

Sunday, August 13, 2017 
Dear Kashyapji,

From a conventional physicist's point of view, I can appreciate your arguments and perspective. However, you have addressed none of the key issues as raised by me viz

I) Signs as assigned to gravitational and mass energies to represent their opposing effects Vs ontological existences of energies.

ii) Cosmological models for the creation of the universe based upon quantum vacuum/BB/cosmic inflation taking into account only 4% of the energy of the universe.

iii) Mechanical motions, light, heat representing the effects of energy which are detectable/sensible by instruments but per se these effects not being energy. The cause behind these effects being the ontological existence of energy is neither positive nor negative. In view of this, corresponding to vast infinite energy of the observable universe, there should be vast infinite energy  at the primordial stage also. There is also the possibility that this vast infinite energy st the primordial stage might  not be in the form, as is known to the current science. It is on account of this that current cosmology starts  with zero known physical energy. But start  of universe with the zero energy has a lot of logical inconsistencies  and explanatory gaps, many of which mentioned by me but no solution forthcoming.

I, further, recognize your point of view that conventional physics is either incapable or not interested in addressing the above issues. However, will this very aspect of Physics make the issues as raised as invalid? Could you please point out in a specific manner where is the flaw in my arguments while raising these issues?

As I had indicated in my previous messages also that the Astral, Causal realms of nature and cosmic consciousness  can't be studied and developed as some objective scientific hypothesis  or theories simply due to the reasons that ontology  of these realms is not detectable by the objective scientific methodology as used by the contemporary. Science.


Vinod Sehgal 
To view this discussion on the web visit

Dear Vinod,

Rest assured, I am not ignoring the questions raised by you. But about ontological issues, I have to repeat as before, physicists cannot revise their models, based on someone’s ontological ideas. As it is clear from the discussions on this blog,  nobody knows what is reality and hence physicists have to leave that issue to philosophers. Only thing physicists can demand is mathematical consistency and agreement with experimental data. For most physicists the matter ends there.

Starting from elementary mechanics (Newton’s laws) energy is defined in a unique way. I understand you took some physics courses a number of years back. You may want to review them or you may want to talk to  a physics professor in a nearby college. If we were close by I would be glad to explain it by writing on a chalkboard. On e-mail it is not possible. In mechanics you start with definition of force (Newton’s laws) then define work and then energy as a body’s capacity to do work. This is then extended consistently to heat, light, electricity-magnetism and finally to atoms and sub nuclear matter. Then Newton’s laws are consistently revised to special and general relativity.  As we discussed before, signs of energy come out naturally in a consistent way. Gravity is attractive. So negative potential energy is natural and no problem. If energy due to motion, kinetic energy 0.5 mv^2 or mass energy mc^2 come out negative, that will be big disaster!!

“Mechanical motions, light, heat representing the effects of energy which are detectable/sensible by instruments but per se these effects not being energy.”  

Energy is associated with each object and it is exchanged between bodies like exchanging money between two persons. One person loses money in his bank (negative effect), the other person gains money (positive effect, increase in bank balance). There is no distinction between effect and energy. Thus starting with zero total energy is not a problem, once you agree that energy can be positive and negative. You have to get rid of this idea in your mind that energy is something you hold in your hand! This may be the flaw in the argument.

Although there is no direct experimental evidence for dark matter and dark energy, there are plenty of indirect evidences. I cannot go through all of that in an e-mail. If you have time and interest you may want to read Wikipedia Articles. 

Thus the situation is not as bad as you think. It is not that people are ignoring 96% of energy of the universe. After all subject like physics attracts plenty of intelligent people, although not much money is available!! They are constantly looking for a consistent model of universe.

As I said last time, from your daily life you have to admit success of some 400 years of physics (science in general).This is not to say that other things like religion, philosophy etc. are not important!

Best Regards.

Vasavada, Kashyap V 
Aug 14, 2017

Dear Vinod ji,


Perhaps, your queries related to science have similar answers as those of my queries related to OOO-God theory. I asked few questions: what color OOO God will experience when He looks at a ripe-tomato. How do you derive 18 elementary particles from 5 Tanmātras? Or where from God gets infinite amount of energy? Or who created God?

Your answer was that we are not at the level of OOO God, so we cannot answer or God does not tell us. Similar answer can be given from science that we need further research on dark matter/energy, etc, and on the answers of “why” and “where from”.

Why are there spontaneous random fluctuations? Why Nature behaves stochastically? Where from do the virtual particles get energies and how? In my view, further research is needed as science is in infancy. OOO-God theory has been over 6000 years at the least, but do you have answers of my queries? No! So why do you expect science will have all the answers in just few hundred year?

The eDAM framework is based on whatever is available in science currently. At present time, BB from “nothing”/vacuum (no material entities and zero total energy) is the best available model although it has many problems. If, in future, there is a better model then the eDAM will be updated accordingly. The eDAM is not rigid like OOO God theory; it evolves as science evolves.

I guess, there are two groups in this forum: (1) OOO God theory group and (2) science/eDAM group; we should further research as we like.

Kind regards,
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
August 13, 2017 

Dear Avtar,


Q: Where does the “positive expansive energy” come from? If you have any article please email me. 

I am currently in the process of reading your articles.

Thanks for the articles and links. I need to understand your framework first so please help me. The following quotes are from (Singh, 2017). So far, I have the following queries:

[1]. “What changes occur in the physical states of the brain a moment before and a moment after death that lead to the cessation of the biological consciousness? […] the brain malfunctions or breaks down, such as during a coma or death, the mind stops working ceasing the conscious experiences.”

Does this imply a brain is necessary for a conscious experience and if there is no brain, there is no conscious experience?

[2]. “The fact that every location in space and every moment of time in the universe is aware of the universal laws points to the existence of awareness of a universal mind or consciousness.”

Does this contradicts the above [1] in the sense brain is not necessary if “universal consciousness” also mean experiences and experiencer (such as the “self” in human being)? It seems that we need to define the terms before using them; otherwise, confusion will occur. What is “consciousness’ and what is the difference between “universal consciousness” and “biological consciousness”?

[3] “Furthermore, the presence of conscious beings and the prevailing cosmic order are not possible in a universe that is not conscious.”

Do you mean all living and non-living systems are conscious (as in panpsychism)?

You seem to reject materialism, so what is your metaphysics, idealism/Advaita, ‘interactive substance dualism’/‘dualistic Sānkhya’, or dual-aspect monism?

Kind regards,
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

On Sunday, 13 August 2017 11:43 AM, Asingh2384 wrote:
Dear Kashyap/Vinod/Ram:

The root cause of the missing 96% (dark energy/dark matter) from the current standard model Big Bang cosmology is complete ignorance of the positive expansive anti-gravitational energy of the universe. Because of this fundamental deficiency, Einstein proposed a fudge factor Cosmological Constant to fix the issue, and even today it remains as the only viable explanation of dark energy causing the observed accelerated expansion of the universe.

What I have tried to show that adding to relativity the missing physics of spontaneous mass/energy conversion observed in wave/particle complimentarity and mass/energy equivalence principle, solves this problem and provides a physical basis for Dark Energy or cosmological constant eliminating the artificial fudge factor as well as paradoxes/inconsistencies of physics and cosmology (GR, QM, standard model etc). Such an integrated approach predicts the observed expansion of the universe without the paradoxes of the Big Bang standard model and QM.  

Expansive energy cannot be artificially created from the mis-conceived negative gravitational energy. Gravitational energy could only cause an inward contracting collapse or crunch such as in a black hole but could not lead to the observed expansion of the universe. Positive expansion energy is required to create or store a gravitational potential energy (termed negative). Negative GPE has no existence of its own without the positive expansive energy. This fundamental misconception has led to various weird concepts such as inflation, multiple universes, fine tuning, dark energy, dark matter, big bang, and unexplained weirdness of QM including the collapse of the wave function, etc.  

Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
To view this discussion on the web visit

Dear Ram and All:

The following statement in your e-mail is fundamentally incorrect:
“The positive exactly balances the negative, so, ultimately, there is no energy in the universe at all.”

The above is incorrect because if it were true then the gravitational pull would cause an instantaneous collapse/crunch of the universe mass in galaxies and stars. Further, the observed universe is observed to be expanding (Hubble Expansion) at an accelerating rate due to the anti-gravity or dark energy. The faraway galaxies are observed to be moving away at almost the speed of light exhibiting tremendous positive kinetic energy showing no sign of negative energy or pull of gravity. 

Just as a net positive energy is needed to launch a rocket into space against gravity, a net positive expansive energy is needed to cause the observed accelerated expansion of the universe to overcome gravitational pull of the masses in the universe.

Another evidence of the incorrectness of the Zero total energy of the universe is that the standard Big Bang model fails to predict 96% of the universe consisting of dark energy and dark matter. This 96% error in the Big Bang model is the direct result of the ignorance of the positive anti-gravity or dark energy.

In summary, the observed continued net accelerating Hubble expansion of the massive universe is evidence of its net positive energy. A universe consisting only of matter and negative gravitational energy would crunch and collapse into a black hole in no time.

Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
August 11, 2017

Dear Ram:

Standard Big Bang model (BBM) assumption of the net zero energy of the universe is fundamentally wrong as evidenced by the missing 96% (dark energy and dark matter) universe that the standard model fails to predict. Further, the following unresolvable inconsistencies and paradoxes of the BBM (including GR and QM) destroy its credibility as a universal theory:

1.      Quantum gravity?

2.      Parallel universes (undermines the unique set of universal laws that is the foundation of physics)?

3.      The so-called quantum ZPF (Zero-point Field) is 120 orders of magnitude off (higher) than the observed energy in the empty space (cosmological constant). (Quantum ZPF is not the real zero point of the universe as claimed)?

4.      Observer or measurement paradox (undermines credibility of all quantum observations)?

5.      Black hole singularity (undermines GR predictions at the beginning of the universe)?

6.      Superluminous (V>C) inflation (violates relativity?

7.      Photon Zero mass in standard model but positive finite energy/momentum violate relativity and equivalence of mass-energy and momentum laws?

8.      Well-established relativity of space-time negates an absolute instant of time zero? Clock either ticks continuously or stops; in either case it never reads time = 0. Zero time or beginning has no physical basis?

9.      BBM’s 4% success rate of universe prediction kills the credibility of the standard model as a universal theory?

Hence, all the arguments using standard BBM model to explain consciousness, Prakriti, Brahma, nothingness, creation, or any physical/spiritual concepts etc have no more than 4% credibility on a universal basis. If you or I score 4% on our physics exam, it would be regarded as a serious failure.

Unfortunately this the sorry state of the BBM standard model. However, these deficiencies can be fixed via integrating the missing physics of spontaneous mass-energy conversion or equivalence into relativity theory that also explains inner workings of QM as well as resolve many of the current paradoxes of physics and cosmology.

Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
August 10, 2017

Dear Vinod,

Now as I said, I am talking about physical models of origin of universe for which there is majority consensus; surely not 100 percent! Nothing in science is 100 percent nor should it be. Scientists should be willing to drop their favorite model at the drop of a hat, when evidence is pointing against it. [...]

If you believe in quantum physics, you have to believe in uncertainty principle. There is no choice! You cannot pick and choose in science. The whole science comes as a package! In a way this question is similar to the debate about evolution and creationism. Creationists would argue that if the complete blueprint of how to design life is known to God for example, it should not take 4 Billion years of trial and error to produce human beings. Scientists, even believers, would say that is how the laws of nature operate.

The universe in the beginning had minimum entropy. It has been increasing ever since then. If there is a big crunch and start over, there will have to be some mechanism to reduce the entropy.

Again, all of this is consistent with the laws of physics as of today. They may look weird from our everyday experience. But we should not expect that universe should be consistent with what a little human being can rationalize from his/her everyday experience!!

Best Regards.

August 11, 2017

Dear Paul,

I assume mechanism, and the knowledge that all machine dreams/computations are emulated in the arithmetical reality... I interpret the contradiction as typo error, joke, or attempt to remind never taking anything sacred literally. 

I do not believe in the "paranormal", given that when a psychologist succeeds in verifying a parapsychological experience, like it happened for the luicid dream, then "para" is thrown away. 

I am a skeptical. I am a Platonist, I do not believe in what I see. I trust the normal in principle, but beware of the domain involved. "Para" is a sociological term. It is an artificial wall.

I don't believe in the normal physical things already. It is easier to explain the illusion of the moon to a person, than to explain the illusion of person to the moon... 

My real interest has always been the mind-body problem, and the partial solution I saw in molecular genetics was already in elementary arithmetic. It is Gödel theorem which decides me to do mathematics.

To be sure, as a professional I am agnostic, here I assume and behave like if I was a mechanist believer (to avoid conditional jargon). [...]

For me the problem begun when theology was kept away from science. That has helped only bad faith. Both in the Eastern and Western world, you see the honest inquirers, and those with hidden agenda (fame, money, notoriety, ...). When liars get the power, as they often do, honesty is an handicap, even if it is the only real power in the long run.

There is also a natural fear with respect to the fundamental question, life and death. And who we are.

When I asked my father what is truth, he told me that it was what the human fears the most. [...]

Many salvia reports describe en encounter with a divine entity definitely felt as feminine. 

And I like to joke on the macho greeks for which odd numbers are male and even numbers are female, and for who 1 is, of course, the Big One, ... I like to joke when pointing that today we know that the big 1 is in between the two most terrible female of Platonia: the number 0 (death, annihilation) and the number 2 (life, couple, duplication, creation, the indefinite dyad of the Pythagoreans).

But take this with a grain of salt, if that was needed to be made precise.

Best wishes,


Dear Siegfried,

The hallmark of subjective experience is that as far as we can tell it arises from entirely proximal dynamic relations. That is to say we have no subjective experience of the dynamic relations that instantiate hydrogen fusion in the sun that send photons to earth. We have no subjective experience relating to the life of the photon. In fact we have no subjective experience that we can attribute directly to events in the retina. Our experiences are composed of elements that have to be inferred later - like colour, which only arises after the cortex has compared inputs over time from allover the retina. 

So no subject can ever have any evidence of the experience of some other type of subject - because it relates to distal events. That is really the root of our problems. Whether anything other than each of the subjects in my brain (however many) that reports seeing a screen experiences anything other than the screen the ‘mes’ are seeing is an unanswerable question. I personally think it is fair to reject solipsism of any sort and take the parsimonious position that all individual dynamic units are subjects. So I am a sort of panexperientialist. This position is parsimonious because otherwise you have to propose some distinguishing rule.

But all we can really usefully study is the nature of the dynamic individual unit that has the sort of experience that we discuss as belonging to a ‘me’. It would be unparsimonious and lead to over determinism if we posited such an experience both very locally in a brain and smeared out in a whole person. So we ought to choose between the two.

We have absolutely nonscientific motivation for smearing out experience in a whole human body. Most of the human body has nothing to do with the experiences we talk about. My bone marrow making red cells is irrelevant. My heart contracting is irrelevant. They are no more relevant than the cushion I sit on or my spectacles or the blind man’s stick or Otto’s notebook or the whole world. The extended mind people have blown the cover of the embodied cognition people by pointing out that the body is irrelevant.

I do not think third and first person aspects are isomorphic. I have argued with people like Nick Shea about this in some detail. There are redundancies in both directions. However, in loose terms, which I think is what you mean, I see no reason to doubt some sort of systematic matching relation - how would experience be useful if not? I think talk of larger dimensionality risks wandering off into fairyland a bit. And this is where I think locality comes in. If subjective experience is a first person take on dynamics that actually do something useful in our lives, like survival, then in order to make sense of physics the dynamics need to obey locality in a broad sense but a sufficiently precise sense to rule out arbitrary smearing across a few extra dimensions. 

If subjective experience does not obey locality the whole of physics crashes because every test of physics includes a final experiential step. if you throw away the rules for that step you throw them away for everything. Again it is like the rule that for any syllogism with conflicting premises all conclusions are valid. Logic crashes.

Neuroscientists are quite good at stimulating individual points in the brain and getting rich experiences. They cannot do it very often because the only ethical time is when someone is having epilepsy surgery. There have been instances when repeated stimulate of the same spot has given rise to repeated similar experiences - so yes it has been done.

I agree that there are problems with questions about whether an experience in one brain is ‘the same’ as that in another. That goes back to the earlier issue about never accessing other experiences. Wittgenstein was right (for the wrong reasons) to say there is no valid answer. And if there are 1000000 experiences at the same time in a brain we cannot know if they are ‘the same’. Moreover, we would not particularly expect them to be if each is dealing with s lightly different level of abstraction or field of attention. Philosophers can say they all have the same ‘content’ but that is because they define ‘content’ as being what the experience is ‘about’. If I look at a tomato all the experiences in my head are of looking at a tomato. But they may be wildly different in terms of the local dynamics involved. And despite Wittgenstein we could reasonably say that it is very unlikely that there could even hypothetically ‘seem’ the same. one might have ten times as many bits of information as another.

I cannot see any need to postulate orthogonal worlds. All we need is perfectly ordinary physics - because ordinary physics always includes an experience of our type and an otherwise very reliable way of linking up dynamic relations.

Parsimony gets to look more and more important as you get older. Life is short.

Best wishes

Edwards, Jonathan 
August 14, 2017
Fifth International Conference 
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal

East-West cultural encounter

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August 09, 2017

The Infinite was reduced to square and cube

Dear All,

I have been reading the debates about “scientific“ explanation of consciousness with lot of interest. Since I do not have my own model, I can be impartial about them! First, I do like the eastern philosophical idea of universal consciousness, pansychism if you want to call it. The primitive semblance of consciousness may be present in atoms or even fundamental particles, although that may be very difficult to establish. In a way, I like Penrose-Hemeroff model (Hemeroff posted his article here recently on this website), but there are problems with it and it is also far from being established. Similarly Morrison’s model has also some interesting points.

About Jim Kowall’s holographic model, I can say much more. Although it is quite interesting from the point of view of universal consciousness, I should say; it is dangerous to build your model of consciousness on uncertain physics. I read number of physics blogs also. I find that Tom Banks’ holographic model does not have any appreciable following. Even his former student Lubos Motls does not believe in it. Holography was established by Maldacena from string theory for model of Anti-de Sitter universe where the cosmological constant (cc) is negative. Our present day universe seems to have small positive cc, thus it is de Sitter. There are attempts to extend the holographic model to positive cc and Tom Banks’ model is one of them. But Tom Banks’ model turns out to be anti-inflationary. While it is true that inflationary scenario is not experimentally established, majority consensus is still in favor of it. You might know about recent controversy in Scientific American magazine where 17 prominent physicists signed in favor of the inflation scenario. The whole field is quite controversial.

Another problem I see with Jim Kowall’ s model is that it relates consciousness to holographic screen which may be some 13.8 B light years away from us. We live for some 70 to 100 years and the consciousness we know ourselves ends with our deaths. Now it may be true that according to eastern philosophy, consciousness jumps from a dead body to a new body on rebirth, but still it is hard to relate is to some screen 13.8 B light years away. Also each of us having our own screen is troubling, since after all there is no difference in consciousness from one person to another and possibly animals who do not understand all this also may have some consciousness. I would rather relate consciousness to something in our neighborhood. It is fine for our neighborhood to be related to what happened 13.8 B years ago but that is a different matter!

Best Regards.

August 8, 2017

Dear Vinod and Vimal,

If you forgive me for jumping into  your debate, in this case I agree with Vinod that,

“The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations”.

GR just says that matter curves (distorts) space time. It does not say that there can be no space without matter or radiation. In fact de Sitter universe keeps on expanding with no matter, just a positive cosmological constant. Forget about models of inflation, even now, there is huge amount of interstellar space where there is practically no or extremely little matter or energy. Interstellar space is practically vacuum e.g. you may run into a molecule every few miles! It is possible that I may have  misunderstood your disagreement!

Best Regards.

August 9, 2017

Dear Jim,
Logical consistency generates valid deductions. But valid deductions are not sound deductions. If the premises are false the deduction may be valid but will be false. We all use logic as best we can, but it is no good if applied to false dynamics.

You seem to be making the very old error of assuming that the relation of a point of view to what it perceives is optical. This is the true homunculus fallacy - trying to explain how the optical relation of the eye to the world leads to rich inner experience by positing another optical relation. It achieves nothing.

Leibniz uses the analogy of the point  with light coming from all directions as a way of explaining how experience might be rich but he knows enough to see that it is not how things actually work. And now at the fundamental quantum level we have abandoned the trajectories of Newtonian optics. A human point of view must involve some dynamic relation deep within a brain (we can show that empirically) and information does not travel usefully along optical paths in brains. So forget screens and all that. We are almost certainly looking for some sort of distributed relation of field values. I cannot see what event horizons have to do with it either, or organisms, or thermodynamics. This to my mind is just all bad physics. It is just the same old ‘conventional scientific sense’ but with false premises based on applying bits of physics in the wrong way. In my long experience of searching for solutions to tricky problems I have usually found that the answer is something mundane hidden within what you already know, not some new conception based on broad abstract ideas.

Best wishes

August 8, 2017

Dear Whit,

I think you may be confusing the real homunculus fallacy - that you can explain the nature of experience by replacing one relation with another of the same kind (Dan Dennett’s rather Shakespearian ‘duplicate entire the talents they are rung in to explain’) - with the spurious homunculus fallacy that denies the need for an inner receiving unit.

The relation of eye to world is optical but it is not intentional because there is no image in the eye and no interpreting of information as ‘about’ anything. That comes later inside the brain. The mistake people make is to think an inner receiving self is redundant when you already have an outer one. As Descartes pointed out there is no outer self, just a machine-like body providing in focussing access route to the inner receiving unit. Organisms or people do not have experiences. Something inside them does. The signals reaching the outside of a body are not in a form that provides any knowledge about anything. Knowledge can only be achieved by differentials computed within. So the signals are not in themselves information. They are the substrate or medium through which information operates.

I do not think the human subject is an illusion. It seems to me it is the most certain thing around. But it is not a person or organism. That would be illusory.

August 8, 2017

From: "Edwards, Jonathan"
Tuesday, August 8, 2017 8:17 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?

Dear Whit,

I think you may be confusing the real homunculus fallacy - that you can explain the nature of experience by replacing one relation with another of the same kind (Dan Dennett’s rather Shakespearian ‘duplicate entire the talents they are rung in to explain’) - with the spurious homunculus fallacy that denies the need for an inner receiving unit. 

The relation of eye to world is optical but it is not intentional because there is no image in the eye and no interpreting of information as ‘about’ anything. That comes later inside the brain. The mistake people make is to think an inner receiving self is redundant when you already have an outer one. As Descartes pointed out there is no outer self, just a machine-like body providing in focussing access route to the inner receiving unit. Organisms or people do not have experiences. Something inside them does. The signals reaching the outside of a body are not in a form that provides any knowledge about anything. Knowledge can only be achieved by differentials computed within. So the signals are not in themselves information. They are the substrate or medium through which information operates.

I do not think the human subject is an illusion. It seems to me it is the most certain thing around. But it is not a person or organism. That would be illusory.

August 8, 2017

Dear RLPV,

As regards your tomato quiz, my impression is that there can't be any situation where the God is looking at a tomato. Thus the question is absurd and a mere word play. The following excerpt can help to make things clear.

"we may regard, describe, and realise it as Lila, the play, the child's joy, the poet's joy, the actor's joy,...of the Soul of things eternally young, perpetually inexhaustible, creating and re-creating Himself in Himself for the sheer bliss of that self-creation...Himself the play, Himself the player, Himself the playground"

[Sri Aurobindo,  The Life Divine, p.103],

I haven't noticed you having referred to Sri Aurobindo ever. And I feel that is the reason you haven't been able to convince anyone of the soundness of your eDAM thesis.

Thanks for your patience for responding to all sorts of doubts and disagreements in this forum.

Tusar (b.1955)
August 7, 2017


On Tuesday, 8 August 2017, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL wrote:
Respected Dr. Ram,

Since with our  current state of consciousness, we are  unable to about the cosmic consciousness of OOO-God,  therefore, it is difficult for us to find exactly how a tomato is experienceable by OOO God. In view of this, your question is also ill framed  the way as rightly pointed by BMP that a child trying to get hold of the moon in the lap of his/her mother.

What I replied was based on my logical understanding and not experience. Therefore, you should have also responded based upon some logical understanding.

Vinod Sehgal

Dear Vinod ji,

You may like to investigate if Swami YogeshwaraNanda ji has written something on this topic. Alternatively, you try to find some yogi who is on the highest level and able to answer my simple query. My personal guess is that there is no group experience as concluded in (Theiner & O’Connor, 2010), Therefore, God, as a group of all entities (if He is equivalent to our infinite universe), does not experience anything (I know you will disagree!). However, we (our Ātmans = God because of the Mahāvākya aham brahmāsmi) are the ones who can experience because we have necessary NNs in our mind-brain systems.

Kind regards,
August 8, 2017

Ram: In your OOO-God theory framework, what kind of consciousness research you expect us to do other than prayer and meditation?

BMP: First of all, it is not my theory. What do I know about God? I can only present what I have learned and understood from the literature and those before me who have some realization concerning these topics.

I am not contributing to this forum using prayer and mediation, am I? The vast literature on the subjects which I am offering are in the form of a rational scientific, systematic, philosophical and religious nature. From what i have read of your ideas, although you have obviously worked very hard to accumulate whatever knowledge you do have, I do not see the quality of insight gained from the many authors I have read and know about.  So I am presenting some of those arguments for you to consider for your own benefit and development. I don't expect you or anyone else to know everything. That is one purpose for which this forum exists - to learn from one another, not only for each person's propaganda about themselves. This is the spirit of sadhu-sanga which, as others have commented, is the unique quality of this forum. We don't reject prayer and meditation, or atoms and molecules, or supernatural phenomena, or anything else within the human and divine spirit. All are subjects for consideration if there is an actual rational element being offered for common discussion in defense of such ideas. No one here is interested in dogmatic fundamentalism.

The study and knowledge of consciousness was already accomplished long before you or modern science ever came on the scene. If you are not willing to accept that and think you have the only valid means of understanding the concept of consciousness, for me that would disqualify anyone that I would consider a scientist. [...]

We may not want to hear that there are other conceptions of reality that differ from our own. But we are here together to work out what consciousness may actually mean, and all are trying to contribute their insights as well as critiques as to what may or may not be a valid way to proceed.  Humility, tolerance and respect are requisite in such a process. That's all we can expect  from honest men/women with good will, along with some prayer and mediation that a proper conception may arise from our sincere endeavors in that spirit.

Thank you for your scholarly and gentlemanly attitude here. 

B Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science
August 6, 2017
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The Infinite was reduced to square and cube. 
Sri Aurobindo Savitri. Book 2, Canto XI FOREWORD. ... › blogs › light-of-supreme › sq...
Oct 15, 2013 - the square always indicates to me [Sri Aurobindo] the Supermind: it is a perfect shape... It might have been already ... The Infinite was reduced to square and cube. ||71.29||. Arranging symbol and ... › blogs › light-of-supreme › 31...
Jul 14, 2017 - (Note: The personal and "who" pronouns within Savitri lines are marked in bold and the possessive pronouns are marked in bold and italics. ... The Infinite was reduced to square and cube ...

And in Rohit Mehta's The Dialogue with Death we read: "In the epic of Savitri, Sri Aurobindo deals exhaustively with the Yoga of Aswapati, which indeed is the Yoga of ..... The Infinite was reduced to square and ...

Talavane Krishna - 2001 - ‎Art
Audacious lines were traced upon the Void; The Infinite was reduced to square and cube. ... Sri Aurobindo, SavitriYANTRA IS A TOOL OR A SYMBOL conceived as a form pattern used to represent a deity or a cosmic  ...